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Top :: Communities ::Ethnic:: Muslim::
Jesus Omen about the pdraclete |
alwan64
Date:
2009-03-13
Time: 12:23:58
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The greatest Omen in the New Testament of the
final Prophet (Muhammad) is Jesus' omen about
the Paraclete. John’s Bible is distinguished
by mentioning Jesus' omen of this Prophet,
where he says to his followers: “If you love
me, you will obey what I command, and I will
ask the Father, and he will give you another
Counselor to be with you forever—the spirit
of truth. The world cannot accept him,
because it neither sees him nor knows him.
But you know him, for he lives with you and
will be in you……” “If anyone loves me, he
will obey my teachings. The Father will love
him, and will come to him and make our home
with him. He who does not love me will not
obey my teachings. These words you hear are
not my own; they belong to the Father who
sent me. All this I have spoken while still
with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit
whom the Father will send in my name, will
teach you all things and will remind you of
everything I have said to you…..” “I have
told you now before it happen, so that when
it does happen you will believe. I will not
speak with you much longer, for the prince of
this world is coming. He has no hold on me-“
John 14, 15-30
In the next chapter, Jesus asks his followers
to sustain his commandments, and then says:
“When the Counselor comes, whom I will send
to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth
who goes out from the Father, he will testify
about me. And you also must testify, for you
have been with me from the beginning” John
15, 26
“All this I have told you so that you will
not go astray. They will put you out of the
synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when
anyone who kills you will think he is
offering a service to God….” “Because I have
said these things, you are filled with grief.
But I tell you the truth: it is for your good
that I am going away. Unless I go away, the
Counselor will not come to you; but if I go,
I will send him to you. When he comes, he
will convict the world of guilt in regard to
sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard
to sin, because men do not believe in me; in
regard to righteousness, because I am going
to the Father, where you can see me no
longer; and in regard to judgment, because
the prince of this world now stands
condemned. I have much more to say to you,
more than you can bear. But when he, the
Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you
into all truth. He will not speak on his own;
he will speak only what he hears, and he will
tell you what is yet to come. He will bring
glory to me by taking from what is mine and
making it known to you.” John 16, 1-14
In these lines, Jesus spoke of the
characteristics of his successor. Who is that
successor??
Christians and “the Paraclete”:
Christians say “The Holy Spirit comes at
Pentecost, When the day of Pentecost came;
they were all together in one place. Suddenly
a sound like the blowing of a violent wind
came from heaven and filled the whole house
where they were sitting. They saw what seemed
to be tongues of fire that separated and came
to rest on each of them. All of them were
filled with the Holy Spirit and began to
speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled
them.” Acts 2, 1-4
The New Testament’s chapters speak no more
about what happened on the day of Pentecost
regarding the raising of the Christ. Father
Athnasios in his interpretation of John’s
Bible states “Paraclete, is the Holy Spirit,
the counselor “But the Counselor, the Holy
Spirit, whom the Father will send in my
name”(John 14, 26) is the one who descended
upon them on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2,
1-4) so they filled with him and went to
spread the word, and he is with the Church
and within the believers. He is a gift with
faith and baptism.”
Muslims and “ the Paraclete”:
Muslims believe that what John mentioned
about the Counselor is a foreseeing of
Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) for so
many indication. One of which is the word
“Counselor” which is a new replacement of the
new translations of the New Testament, where
the old Arabic translations (1820, 1831,
1844AD) used the Latin word “Paraclete” as it
is. Same is done with many international
translations.
In explanation to the term “Paraclete”, it is
a Latin originated word, derived either
from:-
The word Paraclytos which means Counselor, or
helper. Or
The word Peroclotos which is near the meaning
of Muhammad and Ahmad (to be thanked)
Father Athnasios, Bishop of Bani-Sowaif, in
his interpretation of John’s Bible states
“The term Paraclete if manipulated can be
pronounced Perclyte which means “Praise”, a
meaning close to the meaning of Ahmad”
Mr. Abdul-Wahab Al-Naggar asks Dr. Carlo
Nilno (PhD of Ancient Jewish Greek
literature) about the meaning of the term
“Perclotos”, who replies “it means the one
with lots of Praise”
Meanwhile, what confirms the incorrectness of
this translation is that the Greeks were
accustomed to add the letter “s” at the end
of names not adjectives.
Mr. Abdul-Ahad Dawod thinks that Church’s
interpretation of the term “Paraclete” (as a
person whom is called to help, an
intercessor, an attorney, or a mediator) is
incorrect. And that the Greek word
“Paraclete” is none of these meanings. Since
“Counselor” mean “Paraclov” or “Paregoris” in
Greek, whereas an “Attorney” is an Arabic
translation of the term “Sangers”.
“Intercessor” and “mediator” are “Meditia” in
Greek. Therefore, Church’s refrain from the
meaning “Praise” to any of those meaning is
some kind of perversion or alteration.
Dr. Simpson (Author of “The Holy Spirit, or a
higher force”) states that “Counselor” is not
a precise translation.
All the above shows that there is a conflict
between Muslims and Christians in the Latin
origin of the term “Paraclete”, as Muslims
believe that its origin is the term
“Perclotos”, and that Christians have
misinterpreted it in order to conceal its
indication of the meaning of the name “Ahmad”
(the one with lots of Praise). Such
misinterpretation is not strange or awkward
for their books. The same while translating
or reprinting, some twisting, misspelling or
change in names could occur. For example,
“Parpas” in the protestant version is “Parpa”
in the catholic version. The same with
“Mesaia – Mashih” and “Shelon – Sheloh” and
so on. “Paraclete” is translated from Syriac,
native language of the Christ, therefore, the
same twisting might occur.
To clear the distortion from this point,
Edwin Jones in his book (The beginning of
Christianity) admits that “Paraclete” is a
sign form “Mohammad (may Allah exalt his
mention).but then again covers his confession
with a lame lie by saying that Christians –
influenced by emerging Islam and Islamic
culture – have inserted this term to John’s
Bible.
The Paraclete is a human prophet not a Holy
Spirit:
It makes no difference whether the meaning of
Paraclete is “Ahmad” or “Counselor”, Since
Jesus stipulated some characteristics that
declines the meaning of “Holy Spirit”, and
confirms that the Paraclete is a human being
was sent by Allah. It is very clear through
deep analysis of John’s texts about
“Paraclete”.
John used some verbal senses (talking,
hearing, etc) “he will speak only what he
hears”. Those characteristics do not apply to
the “tongues of fire” that came to them on
the day of Pentecost, since John never
mentioned that the “tongues of fire” spoke
that day. Besides, what the spirit does is
heart inspiration while talking is a human
characteristic not spiritual.
Early Christians believed that John was
talking about a human being, that in the
second century (187 A.D.) a “Montenos”
claimed to be the Paraclete. The same during
the fourth century A.D. with “Many”, who
chose twelve students (like Jesus) in
addition to seventy bishops whom he sent to
the eastern countries, in a clear indication
that they didn’t believe that the third
hypostasis (Holy Spirit) is the Paraclete.
Another characteristic that this messenger
comes after Jesus departs from earth, since
Jesus and the counselor messenger would never
be together on earth, confirming once more
that the counselor is not the Holy Spirit who
supported Jesus during his life. “Unless I go
away, the Counselor will not come to you”
The Holy Spirit existed before Jesus, and was
in the students before Jesus left, since it
witnessed the creation of heaven and earth
(Genesis 1/2). It even played some role in
the birth of Jesus, Since Jesus’ mother “was
found to be with child through the Holy
Spirit” (Matthew 1/18)
They gathered also on the day Jesus was
baptized “and the Holy Spirit descended on
him in bodily form like a dove” (Luke 3/22).
So, the Holy Spirit was with Jesus and even
before. Therefore, the counselor - “Unless I
go away, the Counselor will not come to you”
– is not the Holy Spirit.
Another indication that Paraclete is human,
that he is the same as Jesus, who was human
“I ask the Father to give you another
counselor”. In the Greek text the word
“allon” is used, which is used to indicate
“another of the same kind” while the word
“Hetenos” is used when referring to “another
of another kind”. In this sense, it would be
fair to assume that the meaning is “another
prophet” since we can not presume the meaning
“another Holy Spirit” for the Holy Spirit is
one unit.
Because Jews and followers of Jesus will not
believe the forthcoming prophet, Jesus
stresses that they must believe in the
forthcoming prophet and follow him. “If you
love me, you will obey what I command”, “I
have told you now before it happens, so that
when it does happen you will believe”, and
confirms his honesty by saying “he will speak
only what he hears, and he will tell you what
is yet to come” All these commandments have
no meaning if the forthcoming is the Holy
Spirit, who descended in the form of “tongues
of fire” with the effect of them knowing many
languages. Such entity needs no one to prove
its honesty. Also the Holy Spirit is one part
of the Trinity, and all Christians should
believe in his, why then should Jesus tell
them to believe in him??
According to Christians, The Holy Spirit is
equal to The Father in divinity. Therefore,
he can speak for himself, while the
forthcoming spirit of truth “will speak only
what he hears”.
“I have much more to say to you, more than
you can bear. But when he, the Spirit of
truth, comes, he will guide you into all
truth.”(John 16/12-13) This text indicates
that the Paraclete will be coming in a later
time, since he will tell them things they
can’t understand, for humanity is still
immature to understand this complete religion
that includes different aspects of life. As
well as it is impossible for the students to
have matured within ten days from Jesus’
ascending to Heaven. No mention of such
maturity was ever found in the testaments.
Moreover, Christians mention that after the
Holy Spirit descended, they abandoned many of
their law and commandments that was easier
than having more commandment than what they
barred at Jesus’ time. While the Paraclete
will bring more burdens to all week oppressed
subjects as Allah said in Surat Al-Muzzamel,
verse5 “Verily, We shall send down to you a
weighty Word (i.e. obligations, legal laws,
etc)”
Jesus told that before the coming of the
Paraclete “They will put you out of the
synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when
anyone who kills you will think he is
offering a service to God” and that was
exactly what happened after the day of
Pentecost, oppression of all followers of
Jesus continued until there was almost no
believers just before Islam emerged.
John mentioned that Jesus told his students
about the characteristics of the Paraclete,
which never applied to the Holy Spirit that
came upon the students on the day of
Pentecost that “he will testify about me. And
you also must testify”, So, where’s the Holy
Spirit’s testimony about Jesus?? And what was
it about??
Whereas Muhammad (may Allah exalt his
mention) testified about Jesus’ innocence of
claiming divinity, and also about his
mother’s innocence of what Jews accused her
with “And because of their (Jews) disbelief
and uttering against Maryam (Mary) a grave
false charge “ (Surat An-Nisaa, Verse156)
“He will bring glory to me by taking from
what is mine and making it known to you” and
no one has praised Jesus like Muhammad (may
Allah exalt his mention) did, when he gloried
him and stipulated his honor above all
creatures. Non of the new testimony’s
chapters mentioned anything about the Holy
Spirit praising Jesus on the day of
Pentecost, where he descended in the form of
tongues of fire.
Jesus said that the Paracelet will stay
forever (his religion or commandments) while
all the powers given to the students on the
day of Pentecost – if true – vanished with
their death, and never transferred to any of
the church men. Whereas, our prophet Mohammad
(may Allah exalt his mention) stays forever
with his message and religion, and that there
will be no prophet or message after him.
“..will remind you of everything I have said
to you” Such reminder is not needed after ten
days from Jesus’ ascendance. The new
testimony never mentioned that the Holy
Spirit reminded them with anything. On the
contrary, we find in lots of their texts and
messages many indications of prescription and
forgetting some of the details mentioned by
others. Whereas Muhammad (PBUH) mentioned
everything humanity may have forgotten of
Allah’s commands ever descended upon his
prophets including Jesus (peace upon him).
The Paraclete has many tasks never achieved
by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost
“When he comes, he will convict the world of
guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and
judgment” The Holy Spirit never convicted
anyone on the day of Pentecost, That’s what
Mohammad (PBUH) has done with infidel
humanity.
Mr. Abdul-Ahad Dawood thinks that Jesus has
interpreted (reproving the world of guilt in
regard of righteousness) by saying “in regard
to righteousness, because I am going to the
Father, where you can see me no longer” in
other words that “he will reprove those
saying that Jesus was crucified denying his
surviving his enemies’ terror. Then he told
them that they will ask for him and will not
find him, for he will ascend to heaven “My
children, I will be with you only a little
longer. You will look for me, and just as I
told the Jews, so I tell you know; where I am
going, you cannot come.” (John 13/33). The
forthcoming prophet will also reprove the
devil and convict it with his inspiration and
guidance “and in regard to judgment, because
the prince of this world now stands
condemned”
Convicting and reproving don’t go along with
consolation, it was said that the counselor
has come to the students to consulate the on
the lose of their master and prophet.
Consolation is due in crises, and Jesus was
announcing his going and the coming of the
successor.
Consolation is also due on time of crises,
not 10 days after (the time of Holy Spirit’s
descending upon the students), and why didn’t
this counselor offer condolences to Jesus
mother in the first place??
Then again, Christians should not consider
Jesus murder as a crises, since in their
believe, is the cause of deliverance and
eternal happiness for humanity. Therefore,
his murder should present a great joy, but
Christians’ insistence that the students
needed the consolation of the Holy Spirit
corrupts the faith of redemption &
deliverance.
Considering all the above, the Paraclete can
never be the Holy Spirit. Since all the
characteristics of the Paraclete tell of a
prophet that will come after Jesus, the same
prophet Moses once told of, The Paraclete “He
will not speak on his own; he will speak only
what he hears” and the same with what Moses
told “I will put my words in his mouth, and
will tell them everything I
command”(Deuteronomy 18/18), and this is a
description of Mohammad (may Allah exalt his
mention) as Allah said in Surat An-Najm,
Verses 3-5 “Nor does he speak of (his own)
desire (3) It is only an Inspiration that is
inspired (4) He has been taught (this Qur'ân)
by one mighty in power (Gabriel)(5)”
Furthermore, everything mentioned about the
Paraclete has indications in Quraan and
Sunnah that strongly points out Mohammad (may
Allah exalt his mention) as the one. He was
the one testifying about Jesus, he was the
one who knew the unknown, and he was the last
prophet. Allah admitted his religion as the
true religion till judgment day.
* Parts of “Have the Holy Bible foretold
about Muhammad (PBUH)?” by Dr. Monqueth
Mahmoud El-Saquar
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Re: Jesus Omen about the pdraclete |
freddo1939
Date:
2009-03-13
Time: 12:31:55
Edited by:babystorm |
The bible is as full of [censored], as all
the other religious books..... Don`t quote
the bible as proof of any thing..... Facts
mate , facts---- Noone has ever seen or is
likely to, any of these pathetic religious
deities.
Down the centuries, these religious
meglamaniacs have used these henious books as
an excuse to go out and mass murder innocent
peoples--- and it`s still happening today---
BURN THESE BLOODY BOOKS |
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Re: Jesus Omen about the pdraclete |
suze
Date:
2009-03-13
Time: 13:04:58
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ive not read it and i have no intention of
doing so alwan
u post incredibly boring low interest things
on here, but you never answer any questions
that are posed by the other contribuotrs,
which points out to me that you nothing at
all about the drivel u post
i never believed in automatons until i startd
to notice your postings
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Re: Jesus Omen about the pdraclete |
socrates
Date:
2009-03-13
Time: 13:10:04
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Alwan - who are you trying to convince?
Yourself? By parroting scripture and various
and dubious 'theologians' you simply expose
your own inability for original thinking, and
a childlike desire to have your life mapped
out for you. Simply look at Muhammads life
objectively for once - you will see a Warrior
much like Edward 1 or William the Conquerer,
only he fooled a supersticious tribal people
in stating he had Gods 'phone number' - a
good trick - but a trick all the same. Open
your eyes man. |
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Re: Jesus Omen about the pdraclete |
freddo1939
Date:
2009-03-13
Time: 13:24:24
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alwan--- your prophet was not the only
warlord... There is a school of thought that
puts jesus as the head of a band of freedom
fighters (thats if he did exist), trying to
rid Palastine of the Romans. There were many
such bands as these in those days........
See no input from you alwan---- are you
just a slave to those violent doctrines you
spout about, or are you an individual with
his own thoughts, and with an ability to
express them...... |
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Re: Jesus Omen about the pdraclete |
freddo1939
Date:
2009-03-13
Time: 15:39:16
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alwan- you and your prophet are useless----
- he hadn`t got a clue about the winner of
the Gold Cup --- useless - useless - useless
--- I couldn`t ask jesus-- he`s a bookie.. |
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Re: Jesus Omen about the pdraclete |
dougmckenzie
Date:
2009-03-13
Time: 17:47:44
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I couldn't be bothered to read it all. Why
doesn't he just put the entire collection of
religious writings on the net and go away?
What a waste of space he is. I can't imagine
anyone here taking him seriously and I
dislike condescending prats who think that
they are right 'because it has been
written'.
Remind me not to invite him out for dinner; I
can think of better ways of dying from
tedium.
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Re: Jesus Omen about the pdraclete |
soul_survivor
Date:
2009-03-13
Time: 21:19:07
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Hereforalaugh, if you are an atheist why do
you have a picture of a funky red demon? 
I'm only kidding and I tend to agree with
what was written about this thread. Not about
all religious debates in general, just about
the fact that he wrote so much, without
really saying anything. I guess when it comes
to the subjuect of religion then people
should pick their points carefully rather
then quoting so much. |
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Re: Jesus Omen about the pdraclete |
mightywurlitzer
Date:
2009-05-06
Time: 17:55:10
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PARACLETE AND PERIKLUTOS
The controversy on the word for
Comforter/Advocate used in the Bible, John 14
& 16, for the Holy Spirit. While the Greek
manuscripts have paraclete, paracletos,
meaning "one who comes along side", some
Muslims argue that the word should be
periklutos, meaning "Praised One", which in
Arabic is Ahmad, which Muslims take to be
Muhammad. There is a direct reference to
"Ahmad" in the Quran, surah as-Saff 61:6, and
so Muslims find periklutos appealing because
then a prophecy of Muhammad can be deduced
from the Bible.
The problem, however, is that there is not a
shred of evidence in support of this theory,
and the thousands of NT manuscripts predating
Islam all do not have periklutos. Christians
and all extant manuscripts have all confirmed
that the word is paraclete as it stands.
Early testimonies of Muslims testify that the
Bible's paraclete is correct, see AHMAD
* The quotes from the Bible concerning the
Paraclete:
"And I will pray the Father, and he will give
you another Comforter, to be with you for
ever, even the Spirit of Truth, whom the
world cannot receive, because it neither sees
him nor knows him; you know him, for he
dwells with you, and will be in you". (John
14:16-17)
"But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the
Father will send in my name, he will teach
you all things, and bring to your remembrance
all that I have said to you". (John 14:26)
"But when the Comforter comes, whom I shall
send you from the Father, even the Spirit of
Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will
bear witness to me". (John 15:26)
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to
your advantage that I go away, for if I do
not go away, the Comforter will not come to
you; but if I go, I will send him to you".
(John 16:7)
In fact, the context of the verses also do
not support periklutos, as shown below. If
Comforter refers to Muhammad, then we also
have to accept
that Muhammad is the Holy Spirit in John
14:26, contradicting Muslim belief that the
Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel,
that Jesus sends Muhammad in (John 15:26 and
16:7) and
that Jesus sends Muhammad in Jesus' name,
that Muhammad dwells with the disciples
forever. (John 14:16-17). Not only is
Muhammad too late by 600 years, he can't
dwell with them forever. The argument that
the truth, law given by Muhammad will be with
them forever is spurious of course, since
they never receive it.
that the disciples of Jesus know Muhammad.
(John 14:16-17).
all of which are unthinkable to a Muslim. If
it is periklutos, then this passage must also
mean a previous "praised one", and one has no
clue as to who this previous "praised one"
was. Jesus was never given such a title,
indeed no person in the Qur'an was. Further,
the literal meaning will be that "He will
give you another Ahmad".
* Some Muslims have argued that because the
Bible uses the pronoun "he" when used with
"Comforter" and "it" when use with "Holy
Spirit", therefore, these two are not the
same:
''XXX makes the point that when Jesus speaks
of a "Comforter," he uses the pronoun "he,"
but when John the Baptist speaks of seeing
the Holy Spirit descending on Jesus, he uses
the pronoun "it." But "Comforter" translates
the Greek PARAKLETOS, which is a masculine
noun, and therefore takes a masculine
pronoun, while "Spirit" translates the Greek
PNEUMA, which is neuter, and therefore takes
a neuter pronoun. The gender of a noun in
English normally reflects the sex (or lack of
it) of what the noun refers to (with a few
exceptions, such as that ships and other
vehicles, and bells, and countries, are
commonly called "she"). But this is not true
in some other languages. In German, for
example, the words WEIB (woman) and FRAEULEIN
and MAEDCHEN (unmarried woman, young girl)
are all neuter, and take neuter adjectives
and neuter pronouns. In my first Latin class,
the teacher asked for a translation of "The
sword is sharp; I have it," and got the
answer, "Gladius acer est; id habeo." She
said, "That's wrong," to the bafflement of
the class, who could not see an error in it.
Finally she asked, "What gender is
'gladius'?" At this point, someone said,
"Aha! it should be 'EUM habeo' -- 'I have
HIM'." And this was right. GLADIUS, being
masculine, takes the masculine pronoun.
Accordingly, no conclusion can be drawn from
the fact that Jesus, (or at any rate his
Greek translator), using the word PARAKLETOS,
uses a masculine pronoun, or that John the
Baptist, using the word PNEUMA, uses a neuter
pronoun.'' |
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