UK Chatterbox Chat Rooms : Slavery [Part II]

Slavery [Part II]
keepopenminded Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 17:13:43	Slavery [Part II] Everybody agreed that thus, it was a war custom in the past to take men and women as captives and then turn them into slaves, Islam did not initiate it, rather, it was something in practice long ago before the advent of Islam, so if your tribe won a war and then got captives so there are 4 options for those slaves (enemies): 1-exchange them by your men and women taken by enemy 2-be ransomed by enemy If option 1 and 2 not available then: 3- Kill them 4-Turn them into slaves Don’t tell me free them because those are your enemies and they will fight against you again. So which is better in your opinion? Surely Turn them into slaves is better than kill them. So everyone knows how slaves treated by masters, and especially women (kill, rape, …). Some people say that Islam also allows Muslims men to rape women slaves. So please be justice and honest and read this and see how Islam ordered a Muslim to treat the slave woman and even man: So it allowed Muslims to have intercourse with slave women taken as captives of just and legitimate wars. In so doing, the woman would automatically become free if she got pregnant. What's more, her child would also become free. in hadith the prophet (saw) makes clear that rape of female slaves is forbidden, The Prophet said (saw) : “There shall be no infliction of harm on oneself or others". The prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Whoever causes harm to others subjects himself to harm caused by God.” The prophet (peace be upon him) said: “You must refrain from dealing wickedly with others, for that would count as a benefaction you do to yourself”. ‘Others’ includes all people, so also slavegirls ! Raping a slavegirl is clearly doing her harm (emotional and physical) which would be a big sin for a muslim to commit and violation of the above hadith. The prophet (peace be upon him) said: Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case I advise you to help them. the last words of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, were: "The prayer! The prayer! Fear Allah concerning your slaves ! " "The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, advised that slaves should be well-treated. He said, 'Feed them from what you eat and clothe them from what you wear. Do not punish what Allah has created.' " the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Your slaves are your brothers, so treat him well. Ask for their help in what is too much for you and help them in what is too much for them." the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "The slave has his food and clothing. Do not burden a slave with work which he is incapable of doing." the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Not one of you should [ when introducing someone ] say ‘This is my slave’ , ‘This is my concubine’. He should call them ‘my daughter’ or ‘my son’ or ‘my brother’. "Serve God, and join not any partners with Him ; and do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours “who are strangers, the Companion by your side, the way-farer (ye meet), And what your right hands possess : for God loveth not the arrogant, the “vainglorious" Surah An Nisa, verse 36 The phrase "What your right hands possess" refers to one’s slaves (male and female). Allah swt ordains the kind treatment of slaves in the same verse where He commands man to worship Him and to treat his parents, relations and neighbours generously, and this signifies the importance of this ruling. I’m able for more proof … To be continued…
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
keepopenminded Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 19:09:41	socrates and mightyw.. i think i've answered you about slavery and raping women in Islam.. so now it's clear that : - Islam came to fight against Slavery and encourage Muslims to free slaves -Our God make among deeds to get his forgiveness for sins is to free a slave -Who Beat a slave or slap him should set him free -Rape of female slaves is forbidden -The woman slave would automatically become free if she got pregnant. What's more, her child would also become free. -Not only that, Islam also ordered a Muslim to treat the slave woman in every respect as if she were his wife. She should be well fed, clothed and given due protection. In the family environment, she had the opportunity to learn about Islam and was free to accept it or reject it. She also had the opportunity to earn her freedom for she could be ransomed. -There is no preference between people (black, white), Preference is only through righteousness.
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
keepopenminded Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 19:19:32	i think Islam came to fight against slavery as i proved so no need to talk to me about sudan or afghanistan.. Islamic rules are clear for everyone to see.. don't relate people's deed to Islam.. "Islam the only perfect way of life" keep that in your mind, and if you don't beleive that.. i can prove you that.. Peace..
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
socrates Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 19:21:48	Closeminded - look at your own post. Conclusion - The concept of slavery remains INTACT! So a pregnant slave becomes a 'freewoman' - WELL WHOOPIE-DOO! That's like locking someone up in a dungeon for nothing - then expecting thanks when you let them out. What planet did your prophet come from?
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
mightywurlitzer Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 19:30:49	TIRED VOICE; KEEPOPENMINDED THIS IS FROM A HADITH ABOUT WOMAN PRISONERS: FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 3, #432: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that while he was sitting with Allah's messenger we said, "Oh Allah's messenger, we got female captives as our booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence." Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Said saying that the prophet said, "No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will . SO WHO MADE THE MISTAKE HERE IS MOHAMMED WRONG ? IS BUKHARI WRONG ? do tell and then let me know where you live and I can send round your local Mullah and he can execute you for apostasy
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
keepopenminded Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 19:32:31	i'll answer your question in a public thread for all people to follow our debate as i did with your previous questions.. now your questions is clear -is there a surah in quran that allow man to beat his wife? -Does Islam allow man to beat his wife? ok read next thread about that.. Peace..
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
mightywurlitzer Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 19:35:06	OK WHO IS WRONG HERE Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab: Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, HE (the Prophet) GAVE PERMISSION TO BEAT THEM. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2141)
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
mightywurlitzer Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 19:38:54	SO WHO IS WRONG HERE please Narrated Qays ibn Sa'd: I went to al-Hirah and saw them prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, so I said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) has most right to have prostration made before him. When I came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), I said: I went to al-Hirah and saw them prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, but you have most right, Apostle of Allah, to have (people) prostrating themselves before you. He said: Tell me, if you were to pass my grave, would you prostrate yourself before it? I said: No. He then said: Do not do so. If I were to command anyone to make prostration before another I WOULD COMMAND WOMEN TO PROSTRATE THEMSELVES BEFORE THEIR HUSBANDS, because of the special right over them given to husbands by Allah. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2135)
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
keepopenminded Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 19:49:59	ok Mightyw you posts are in analizing, you'll get the answers by Allah permission as soon as possible.. but slowly please 1 by 1 not all at once you're many i'm just 1 person, to to answer 1 question it's not easy rather many.. thanks for your collaboration.. Peace..
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
keepopenminded Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 21:05:40	no aspicere, slavery stoped in islam before your country at 1830 by othmanic country if you read history.. and now you can see the rasism of white people against black people in UK or US or other western countries.. this thread just an answer to Mr Socrate's questions.. and all threads you'll see here about in islam just because socrate and mightyw and elephant give me questions.. so i have to answer ..
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
socrates Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 21:23:30	Well you still have not answered anything - you are still evading my questions, even after a week! And Britain Abolished the Slave Trade in 1807-8. Slavery was completely abolished in the 1830s. Britain was the first major country to abolish the disgusting Slave Trade. As far as I am aware, Arabs continued long after this.
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
socrates Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 21:41:04	See how Closeminded conveniently ignores the Islamic (Eastern) Slave Trade? They saw blacks as sub-human, only fit for slavery. Millions were transported to muslim countries into slavery. Oh, and don't forget the 'White Slavers' - those whites captured into salvery in the Islamic 'Golden Years'. You reveal yourself by your ommissions Closeminded.
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
socrates Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 21:49:22	Another snippet of information I just came across Closeminded - Between 700 AD - 1911 estimates of around 14 million Africans were enslaved by Islamic Arabians - 9.6 million women and approximately 4 million men. It is called THE EASTERN ARAB SLAVE TRADE. Glorious! And youv'e got the bloody cheek to call US racist!
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
mightywurlitzer Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 21:51:48	OH KEEPOENMINED you are such a liar telling a young woman such a lie. slavery has never ended in Muslim countries DID YOU KNOW THE LAST FREAKING SLAVE PUBLIC SLAVE MARKET IN MECCA WAS IN the 60's Mecca had a thriving slave market in the 1960's which shocked Malcolm X when he did the Hajj. He chose to remain silent about this when he returned to America. For the 'Nation of Islam' it suits them to blame everything on white people Racist opinions occurred in the works of some historians and geographers: so in the 14th century CE Ibn Khaldun could write: "...the Negro nations are, as a rule, submissive to slavery, because (Negroes) have little that is (essentially) human and possess attributes that are quite similar to those of dumb animals..." However, Ibn Khaldun also wrote about the nomad Arabs themselves (referring to the Bedouin): :"they are the most savage human beings that exist. Compared with sedentary people, they are on a level with wild, untamable animals and dumb beasts of prey ... Arabs dominate only on the plains, because they are, by their savage nature, people of pillage and corruption. They pillage everything that they can take without fighting or taking risks, then flee to their refuge in the wilderness, and do not stand and do battle unless in self defence." In addition, there is debate over his ethnicity, some refer to him as Andalusian/Spanish (he grew up there, his parents were from there), some say he was a Berber/North African (time spent in Tunis, ancestry), and some say he was an Arab (he traced ancestors to Yemen Ibn Khaldun In the same period, the Egyptian Al-Abshibi (1388-1446) wrote, "It is said that when the [black] slave is sated, he fornicates, when he is hungry, he steals."
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
mightywurlitzer Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 21:59:37	The Arab slave trade was the practice of slavery in West Asia, North Africa, East Africa, and certain parts of Europe (such as Sicily and Iberia) during their period of domination by Arab leaders. The trade mostly involved North and East Africans and Middle Eastern peoples (Arabs, Berbers, etc.). Also, the Arab slave trade was not limited to people of certain color, ethnicity, or religion. In the early days of the Islamic state—during the 8th and 9th centuries—most of the slaves were Slavic Eastern Europeans (called Saqaliba), people from surrounding Mediterranean areas, Persians, Turks, other neighbouring Middle Eastern peoples, peoples from the Caucasus Mountain regions (such as Georgia and Armenia) and parts of Central Asia (including Mamluks), Berbers, and various other peoples of varied origins as well as those of Black African origins. Later, toward the 18th and 19th centuries, slaves increasingly came from East Africa Some historians estimate that between 11 and 18 million black African slaves crossed the Red Sea, Indian Ocean, and Sahara Desert from 650 CE to 1900 CE, or more than the 9.4 to 14 million Africans brought to the Americas in the Atlantic slave trade. The medieval slave trade in Europe was mainly to the East and South: The Byzantine Empire and the Muslim World were the destinations, pagan Central and Eastern Europe an important source. Slavery in medieval Europe was so common that the Roman Catholic Church repeatedly prohibited it— or at least the export of Christian slaves to non-Christian lands was prohibited at, for example, the Council of Koblenz in 922, the Council of London in 1102, and the Council of Armagh in 1171. Viking, Arab, Greek and Jewish merchants (known as Radhanites) were all involved in the slave trade during the Early Middle Ages So many Slavs were enslaved that the word 'slave' was derived from their name; not only in English, but in other European languages and Arabic as well Periodic raiding expeditions were sent from Islamic Iberia to ravage the Christian Iberian kingdoms, bringing back booty and slaves. In a raid against Lisbon in 1189 CE, for example, the Almohad caliph Yaqub al-Mansur took 3,000 female and child captives, while his governor of Córdoba, in a subsequent attack upon Silves in 1191 CE, took 3,000 Christian slaves According to Robert Davis between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by Barbary pirates, who were vassals of the Ottoman Empire, and sold as slaves between the 16th and 19th centuries. These slaves were captured mainly from seaside villages from Italy, Spain, Portugal and also from more distant places like France or England, the Netherlands, Ireland and even Iceland and North America. The impact of these attacks was devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. Pirate raids discouraged settlement along the coast until the 19th century. The 'Oriental' or 'Arab' slave trade is sometimes called the 'Islamic' slave trade, but a religious imperative was not the driver of the slavery, Patrick Manning, a professor of World History, states. However, since if a non-Muslim population refuses to adopt Islam or pay the Jizzya protection/ subjugation tax, that population is considered to be at war with the Muslim "ummah" and therefore it becomes legal under Islamic law to take slaves from that non-Muslim population. Usage of the terms "Islamic trade" or "Islamic world" has been disputed by some Muslims as it treats Africa as outside of Islam, or a negligible portion of the Islamic world.[ Propagators of Islam in Africa often revealed a cautious attitude towards proselytizing because of its effect in reducing the potential reservoir of slaves.[ From a Western point of view, the subject merges with the Oriental slave trade, which followed two main routes in the Middle Ages: Overland routes across the Maghreb and Mashreq deserts (Trans-Saharan route) Sea routes to the east of Africa through the Red Sea and Indian Ocean (Oriental route) Historians say the Arab slave trade began in the 7th century and lasted more than a millennium. Arab traders brought Africans across the Indian Ocean from present-day Kenya, Tanzania, Sudan, western Ethiopia and elsewhere in East Africa to present-day Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Turkey and other parts of the Middle East [ and South Asia (mainly Pakistan and India). Unlike the trans-Atlantic slave trade to the New World, Arabs supplied African slaves to the Muslim world, which at its peak stretched over three continents from the Atlantic (Morocco, Spain) to India and eastern China. Elikia M’bokolo, April 1998, Le Monde diplomatique. Quote:"The African continent was bled of its human resources via all possible routes. Across the Sahara, through the Red Sea, from the Indian Ocean ports and across the Atlantic. At least ten centuries of slavery for the benefit of the Muslim countries (from the ninth to the nineteenth)." He continues: "Four million slaves exported via the Red Sea, another four million through the Swahili ports of the Indian Ocean, perhaps as many as nine million along the trans-Saharan caravan route, and eleven to twenty million (depending on the author) across the Atlantic Ocean"
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
mightywurlitzer Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 22:03:52	i hope you know what punishments you can get by lying to a persom keepopenminded ASPIC COULD be a Muslim if she is not your so called religion of god allows you to lie your heart out. I think it says much of Islam that you cannot ever tell the truth and you lie as easliy as a person breaths
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
socrates Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 22:24:24	OK Closeminded - as you are unable to answer, or too embarrassed to - I refer you to the Sura in question 4.34. "Men are superior to women...remove them to their beds apart...and beat them" - You could also substitute the word 'scourge' (whip), but I'll give the Quran the benefit of doubt by simply stating a man can bash his wife with his fists - leaving no marks of course. Wonderfull Islamic etiquette! I believe this answers my own question (for the last time) Is there a Quranic edict (sura) that states it permissable for a man to beat his wife if he deems it necessary? QED!
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
aspicere Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 22:25:00	excuse me mightywurlitzer, i do not need a man to fight my corner. OK I know what keepeopenimind said was untrue and I feel him to be a fraud. but I dont care about such horrible people, they should live in the sewers with the maggots and rats
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
keepopenminded Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 22:34:30	aspicere, you're steel young so please stay respected and don't say anything you have no knwledge about it (i mean about history) ok? so before say that is true or not read first.. then say where is the true and where is the wrong.. Peace..
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
socrates Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 22:59:23	Temper Temper, Closeminded! Your signing off with 'peace' fools nobody - you and your religion have been exposed for what it is by people on these threads - that is error prone and misogynist. I would go away and rethink your beliefs if I were you! Peace! (off)
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
socrates Date: 2008-05-02 Time: 23:11:15	Aspicere - Do you notice how Closeminded changes his tone when pinned down? His remarks to yourself are indicative of the muslim mind towards women in general - condescending/patronising and downright insulting. This is one reason why I hate his religion.
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
aspicere Date: 2008-05-03 Time: 07:17:20	keepopenminded kindly do not lecture me in history, I have a BA ( from the university of Durham ) in history and will be taking my masters soon. You are the person who needs to try and mature and learn and then you have to face that the facts of history often do not fit into your religious predjudice.
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
aspicere Date: 2008-05-03 Time: 07:34:41	Socrates. I must have done something that nobody else has done and read the threads ! and your analysis is succinct . I do feel so sorry for the poor women groaning under the heel of a tyrannical faith.A muslim woman in countries where Sharia law is enforced is the most oppressed person on the planet. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. Real slavery
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
aspicere Date: 2008-05-03 Time: 14:08:55	i am very happy because I can control my own destiny. If Islamic women are so happy why is it that in some countries that have Shariah law the life expectancy of a woman is less than that of a man ? Men have always died younger even in stone age times..except in Islamic countries. Could it be possible that the women are so hard used and neglected that they fall ill quicker, or is it that they kill themselves,? Or, as I think, that God is Merciful that He shortens Muslim woman's lives so that they do not suffer so long
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
keepopenminded Date: 2008-05-03 Time: 14:45:23	Asp. what is this questions ?!!!.. anyway if you know a "good" and "real" muslim woman who have a good relationship with her God, who is stable in her society, who has her chastity and self-esteem then ask her about Islam and women's right in islam..
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
keepopenminded Date: 2008-05-03 Time: 14:58:30	Asp. i forgot to tell you my grandmother (from my mother) has 96 years ago and still alive while her husband dead, and my grandmother (from my fother) has 100 years ago when she died, while her husband died before her.. wa Allahi (I swear), Asp. i don't lie..
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Re: Slavery [Part II]
aspicere Date: 2008-05-03 Time: 16:59:36	you dont understand do you Keep. you dont live in muslim countries like Mali or Niger or chad do you. in all the countries of the world there is an average life span the worse is Zimbabwe and best Andorra in all of them woman live longer than men as they did in stone age times . except some muslim countries mentioned You are such a one fixed mind person you must please try not to be so stupid and opinionated, if you dont know a thing please dont pretend to have an opinion. what do you suppose a 9 year old girl should do ? eagerly doing sport, thinking about horses, making her way at school,eager to learn.playing with her dolls, helping her mother ? playing with her friends ? well in nice Muslim countries she may be about to married , a sweet 9 year old about to be held down and raped by a dirty older paedophile. make no mistake any man in the world looking at a 9 year old girl , if he is planning to marry and rape her is sick. AND such sickness is legal in Muslim countries ...and girl children in Islam have such rights to be raped . please dont lie to me that just because she menstruates she is grown up a 9 year old child is a 9 year old child anywhere .
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